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Tomasz Steifer
IAAH Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 39
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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 Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: asymetric cross |
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I've done for Wikipedia coat of arms of Archbishop Kowalczyk, Primate of Poland.
I noticed, moreover, not the first time, that an unsymmetrical cross is popular in the Polish ecclesiastical heraldry, since the pontificate of John Paul II. I could not think of such a simple way blazoning this cross type. Kaj Malachowski proposed the introduction of new terms to the traditional blazoning. Cross such as the coat of arms pope be called, according to the biography of Karol Wojtyla, "Cracow Cross" ("Krzyż krakowski") , dexter or siniste (polish: prawy i lewy)and a cross on the horizontal bar divided by the "Golden ratio" - "Aureosected Cross" (in polish "Krzyż zlotodzielny"), dexter or sinister. Kai, as the author of two new names, and better than I am writing in English, probably explain these terms more accurately to the forum:)
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Steven Harris
IAAH Assoc. Fellow
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Massachusetts, United States
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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We have a Canadian Pale and a Spanish Fess - why not a Polish Cross (or a "Cross Polska") ?
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Kaj Malachowski
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 85
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steven Harris wrote: | | We have a Canadian Pale and a Spanish Fess - why not a Polish Cross (or a "Cross Polska") ? |
Let me explain: I suggested "croix cracovienne" because it got popularised by Pope John Paul II who adopted it when he became Bishop of Krakow.
Many think he did that in reference to the arms of his great predecessor in the Cracovian episcopal-ducal seat
- Card. Zbigniew de Olesnica (Olesnicki).
As you can see Cardinal Olesnicki's arms is just a standard version of Clan Debno arms (from which he descended) plus the church things.
As you can see in the arms of the lords Debno the cross is just a regular cross, not shifted. (Oh by the way - both my fiancee and me descend from the Cardinal's siblings  ).
But Karol Wojtyla, on becoming Bishop of Krakow, dextered his cross a bit to make more room for a more honourable exposition of the letter "M" thus turning the whole design into an symbol of the Virgin Mary standing under the Cross. Virgin Mary being an important part of his piety. Here is his arms already with the papal insignia:
Many criticised this dextered cross for being not heraldically classical. But the Pope had his point in it. Furthermore - it is not entirely irregular, not just dextered a bit in a randomly chosen distance. It has some logic in it: the cross's sinister edge is just in line with the main vertical axis of the field.
And here comes my proposal - to agree on naming a cross in heraldry, which is dextered (or sinistered) so that its sinister edge (or dexter edge if a sinistered cross) is just at the field's vertical axis - a Cracow cross.
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Kaj M. |
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Geoff Kingman-Sugars
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Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 284
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Steven Harris wrote: | | We have a Canadian Pale and a Spanish Fess - why not a Polish Cross (or a "Cross Polska") ? |
Please don't confuse heraldry with vexillology - they may be similar in many facets, but they certainly aren't the same and their terminology is not always interchangable and should pertain specifically to the subject being discussed.
Neither the Canadian Pale or the Spanish Fess are heraldic terms - they belong to the realm of vexillology and should only be used in conjunction with the Canadian and Spanish national flags.
There are several off-set crosses used in heraldry and because of this, each has to be blazoned separately. They can be off-set to dexter/sinister, to chief/base, dexter chief/base, and sinister chief/base. I believe that covers most of them and each can be adequately blazoned as such.
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Kenneth Mansfield
IAAH Assoc. Fellow
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 333
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Kingman-Sugars wrote: | | Neither the Canadian Pale or the Spanish Fess are heraldic terms - they belong to the realm of vexillology and should only be used in conjunction with the Canadian and Spanish national flags. |
According to the Canadian Heraldic Authority, the Canadian Pale does exist. The arms of N. William B. Rehder (deceased) are as follows:
Gules on a Canadian pale Argent between two towers Or windowed and charged with a flame Gules; in base barry wavy of six Azure and Argent, thereon a Viking longboat under sail Gules. Oars and shields Or, pennant Sable.
source
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Geoff Kingman-Sugars
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Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 284
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Kenneth Mansfield wrote: |
According to the Canadian Heraldic Authority, the Canadian Pale does exist. |
What the CHA do does not necessarily make it correct. This anomaly is well known in several areas of CHA heraldic policy and practice. The fact that it is a Canadian term means that if used in heraldry, as far as I'm concerned, it should be confined to Canadian based arms alone.
I'm sure that 'XXX' country wouldn't accede to their flag being blazoned as including a 'Spanish Fess' or a 'Canadian Pale' if they wished to assert their own distinct nationality. Heraldic blazons should not be geographically explicit for this reason.
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Joseph McMillan
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 323
Location: Alexandria, VA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Geoff Kingman-Sugars wrote: | | What the CHA do does not necessarily make it correct. |
Absolutely. I trust that you would apply this same caution with respect to the College of Arms.
If people absolutely need a more concise formulation than "Latin cross offset to dexter," may I suggest "a Wojtyla cross," at least for people who use it in allusion to Pope John Paul II's arms?
But I do think it's unnecessary.
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Guy Selvester
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Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 106
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Joseph McMillan wrote: |
If people absolutely need a more concise formulation than "Latin cross offset to dexter," may I suggest "a Wojtyla cross," at least for people who use it in allusion to Pope John Paul II's arms?
But I do think it's unnecessary. |
I agree. It is unnecessary. It is blazoned as a Latin cross skewed (or offset) to dexter.
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Geoff Kingman-Sugars
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Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 284
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Joseph McMillan wrote: |
Absolutely. I trust that you would apply this same caution with respect to the College of Arms. |
Of course - Melvyn's arms are a good example of their human frailties. In modern times when communications have improved, I find that the College of Arms don't make all that many mistakes. However, that said, "one glitch does not a precedent make". 
| Quote: | | If people absolutely need a more concise formulation than "Latin cross offset to dexter," may I suggest "a Wojtyla cross," at least for people who use it in allusion to Pope John Paul II's arms? |
That, to me, is a good call, but to be so specific such a charge (if to be included in heraldic terminology) would have to follow the form as depicted in his arms. Putting it to the sinister would not have the same meaning.
| Quote: | | But I do think it's unnecessary. |
Certainly concur with that statement.
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Geoff |
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Kenneth Mansfield
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Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 333
Location: Kentucky, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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My only point was that one should not make broad sweeping statements like the Canadian Pale is not a heraldic term. It may not be an internationally recognized heraldic term and it may not have any meaning outside of Canada. But given that it exists in a blazon from the Canadian Heraldic Authority, it is clearly a heraldic term somewhere.
That said, I agree with you guys 100%.
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Steven Harris
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Massachusetts, United States
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that the creation of a new heraldic term may by undesirable if the same can be unequivocally described with terms that already exist.
For example, our own Robyn Heisel’s arms are blazoned: Purpure a cross Argent enhanced towards dexter chief in sinister base an Heraldic Panther rampant Argent spotted Purpure flamed proper.
http://www.amateurheralds.org/roll/heisel.html
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SAHarris
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Kaj Malachowski
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 85
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven Harris wrote: | I agree that the creation of a new heraldic term may by undesirable if the same can be unequivocally described with terms that already exist.
For example, our own Robyn Heisel�s arms are blazoned: Purpure a cross Argent enhanced towards dexter chief in sinister base an Heraldic Panther rampant Argent spotted Purpure flamed proper.
http://www.amateurheralds.org/roll/heisel.html |
Indeed, Robyn Heisel's arms show a cross enhanced towards dexter chief. But I did not suggest to shorten "a cross enhanced towards dexter chief" to "Cracow cross". I suggested to name a specific kind of a shifted cross. Namely I suggested to name "a cross dextered (or sinistered) so that the sinister (or dexter if a sinistered cross) edge of its vertical part is exactly at the field's main axis" to "Cracow cross" and that's much shorter, isn't it?
Robyn Heisel's cross is an enhanced cross, but it is not a Cracow cross.
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Kaj M. |
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Robyn Heisel
Joined: 25 May 2009
Posts: 73
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Wow... I'm an heraldic example! As I was reading this thread, I wondered if my cross would qualify (and I see here it doesn't, as the edge of my cross doesn't hit the vertical axis), but it doesn't matter to me how my blazon goes.
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Robyn Heisel |
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Kaj Malachowski
Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 85
Location: Warsaw, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Robyn Heisel wrote: | Wow... I'm an heraldic example! As I was reading this thread, I wondered if my cross would qualify
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And I was wondering if you will react to being mentioned as an example .
| Quote: |
(and I see here it doesn't, as the edge of my cross doesn't hit the vertical axis), but it doesn't matter to me how my blazon goes. |
Well, it does qualify as a dextered cross (a category which we are also discussing) but it is not what I would like to name a "Cracow cross" .
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Kaj M. |
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davidappleton
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Duncanville (near Dallas), Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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A similar issue arose within the Society for Creative Anachronism's College of Arms back in 1986, about whether, and how, to blazon a particular cross. In choosing to call it a "Canterbury cross", the then-head of the College wrote:
"These could also have been blazoned as crosses 'patty potent globical quadrate', and I very nearly did so; but at the last minute, the poet in me rebelled. Spring is in the air, and the fit is upon me -- let me name but one Cross before I die!"
David
David B. Appleton
Appleton Studios
www.appletonstudios.com
Heraldry: Musings on an esoteric topic
http://blog.appletonstudios.com
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