Return to IAAH Website
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

A Curious Coat

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    International Association of Amateur Heralds - Forum Forum Index -> Heraldic Identification
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Martin Goldstraw
IAAH Fellow


Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Shropshire, England.
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: A Curious Coat Reply with quote
There is a curious coat of arms on the first page of Joseph Hemingway's History of the City of Chester published 1831 which, although its identity may be obvious to others, completely escapes me.



This has the essence of a completely unauthorised coat of arms but may just have some authenticity; it is the kind of design our amateur heralds have to steer inexperienced would be armigers away from assuming!

The first quarter is that of the ancient arms of the City of Chester used circa 1560 prior to the new grant of arms to the City in 1580 and re-granted to the now defunct Shropshire County Council in 1938. I have consulted with Harold Storey, Chairman of the Cheshire Heraldry Society, and we are of the view that the harp and dolmen in the base together with the St. Patrick supporter all tend towards suggesting Ireland, but what relevance Father Christmas in his night shirt carrying his tree has is beyond our understanding of Cheshire history.

We are not aware that there was ever a Chester-Irish battalion or regiment -surely if there was the arms would have had trefoils not quatrefoils on the cross.

One theory is that it may be Masonic pseudo heraldry.

Any help would be appreciated.
_________________
Martin Goldstraw
Fellow IAAH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kaj Malachowski



Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Posts: 85
Location: Warsaw, Poland
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: A Curious Coat Reply with quote
Martin Goldstraw wrote:
I have consulted with Harold Storey, Chairman of the Cheshire Heraldry Society, and we are of the view that the harp and dolmen in the base together with the St. Patrick supporter all tend towards suggesting Ireland, but what relevance Father Christmas in his night shirt carrying his tree has is beyond our understanding of Cheshire history.

Can this "Father Christmas in his night shirt carrying his tree" ( Very Happy ) be a Celtic druid? Then it would, sort of, make sense, or at least a kind of symbolic "balance" - a Christian bishop on one side, and a pagan druid on the other? (which is also the dolmen side).
_________________
regards! -

Kaj M.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
J. Douglas Welsh
IAAH Assoc. Fellow


Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 436
Location: Halifax, NS Canada
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 11:59 pm    Post subject: Re: A Curious Coat Reply with quote
Martin Goldstraw wrote:
There is a curious coat of arms on the first page of Joseph Hemingway's History of the City of Chester published 1831 which, although its identity may be obvious to others, completely escapes me.



:::SNIP:::

One theory is that it may be Masonic pseudo heraldry.

Any help would be appreciated.


So far as I can see, there is nothing in the arms in the least suggestive of a "Masonic psuedo heraldry" connection. While it is not considered necessary by the Grand Lodges in the British Isles for their Lodges to obtain "grants" from the respective heraldic officials, generally when arms or crests are adopted there is some clear reason, and there is usually the addition of some clearly Masonic elements.

Nor do I see ONLY "Saint Patrick" in the dexter supporter. Is there any possibility of obtaining a blazon?

Otherwise, the harp (which may or may not be an "Irish harp") in Quarter 3 could just as easily be "Gules a harp argent", which would not lead me towards Ireland.

The 1st Q. is identified. Have any of the other Quarters been identified with ANY certainty?

Quarter 2 appears to be a lion probably rampant but is clearly, from the absence of the "Scottish double tressure", not the Royal Arms of the King of Scots. There are several other possibles without some indication of blazon.

Considering the number of dolmens in England, Scotland, Wales, both Irelands, Brittany, the Basque regions, etc., the 4th Q. could simply have been invented. Is there a site near Chester with particularly well known dolmen stones?

Doug Welsh, PM PHP, PTIM, PP
Grand Historian
Grand Lodge of Antient Free & Accepted Masons of Nova Scotia
Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Nova Scotia & Prince Edward Island
Supreme Grand Council of the Eastern Jurisdiction of Canada of Royal & Select Masters
Past Grand Historian
Sovereign Great Priory of Canada of the United Military & Masonic Orders of the Temple and of St. John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes, and Malta
Etc.
_________________
Douglas Welsh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Geoff Kingman-Sugars
IAAH Board Member


Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 284
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: A Curious Coat Reply with quote
Martin Goldstraw wrote:


The first quarter is that of the ancient arms of the City of Chester used circa 1560 prior to the new grant of arms to the City in 1580 and re-granted to the now defunct Shropshire County Council in 1938.
Any help would be appreciated.


According to Burke’s GA, the 1580 grant of arms of the city of Chester were Gules, three lions passant guardant in pale Or dimidiated and impaling the arms of Randolph de Meschines, Earl of Chester, viz. Azure three Garbs Or. However, the first Earl of Chester bore Or a Lion rampant Gules (2nd quarter?).

From 1301 onwards, the earldom of Chester has been bestowed on the Prince of Wales, a fact that might be allusive to the crest shown in the illustration.

Quote:

This has the essence of a completely unauthorised coat of arms but may just have some authenticity; it is the kind of design our amateur heralds have to steer inexperienced would be armigers away from assuming!


I come to the same conclusion myself. The fact that over all is a charged cross would lead one to think that they are ‘stand-alone’ arms that are not divisible into any specific quarterings, even though the first and second quarters appear to be identifiable arms of distinctly different parties even though both are linked to the city of Chester.
_________________
Regards,
Geoff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    International Association of Amateur Heralds - Forum Forum Index -> Heraldic Identification All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group