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Steven Harris
IAAH Assoc. Fellow
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Massachusetts, United States
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 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: The use of “Chevalier” |
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I have a French question that, having never studied the language, I am unable to answer on my own. Specifically, I am looking at the title of “Chevalier”, which is used as the equivalent of the English “Knight”, and exists today as a rank in La Légion d'Honneur, L'Ordre National du Mérite, L'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres, and others.
To illustrate my query, let us take the English couple Jack and Olivia Smith. If Jack is knighted he is then addressed as “Sir Jack Smith” (or just “Sir Jack”, but never as “Sir Smith”) and Olivia would then be “Lady Olivia Smith.” If, conversely, Olivia were knighted in her own right as “Dame Olivia Smith”, then Jack would receive no honorific as men cannot derive precedence from their wives.
I cannot seem to find a thorough comparison to the French title “Chevalier” – what happens if the above scenarios involved a French couple Nathan and Emma Martin, for example? Is he simply “Chevalier Nathan Martin” or do the French have an altogether different naming convention? Is she “Chevalier Emma Martin” in her own right or is there a feminine version of the title? Do the French allow honorifics to be derived from a spouse’s precedence? Is this the same today as it was in pre-Republic, Monarchial or Imperial France?
Thanks!
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Arthur Radburn
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Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 47
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: The use of “Chevalier” |
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| Steven Harris wrote: | | To illustrate my query, let us take the English couple Jack and Olivia Smith. If Jack is knighted he is then addressed as “Sir Jack Smith” (or just “Sir Jack”, but never as “Sir Smith”) and Olivia would then be “Lady Olivia Smith.” |
Steven,
I don' know the answer to your actual question, but two observations:
* Sir Jack Smith's wife Olivia would actually be simply "Lady Smith" -- she'd be "Lady Olivia Smith" only if she held the title "lady" in her own right, i.e. as the daughter of a duke, marquess or earl.
* Chevalier in European orders such as those you've mentioned is usually a much lower rank than a knight in a British order -- in British orders, knights are members of the first and second classes, while in European orders the rank of chevalier is usually the fifth class (comparable to, say, the member class of the Order of the British Empire, which carries only the post-nominal letter MBE but no title before the name).
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Joseph McMillan
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 322
Location: Alexandria, VA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:11 am Post subject: Re: The use of “Chevalier” |
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| Steven Harris wrote: | I have a French question that, having never studied the language, I am unable to answer on my own. Specifically, I am looking at the title of “Chevalier”, which is used as the equivalent of the English “Knight”, and exists today as a rank in La Légion d'Honneur, L'Ordre National du Mérite, L'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres, and others.
To illustrate my query, let us take the English couple Jack and Olivia Smith. If Jack is knighted he is then addressed as “Sir Jack Smith” (or just “Sir Jack”, but never as “Sir Smith”) and Olivia would then be “Lady Olivia Smith.” If, conversely, Olivia were knighted in her own right as “Dame Olivia Smith”, then Jack would receive no honorific as men cannot derive precedence from their wives.
I cannot seem to find a thorough comparison to the French title “Chevalier” – what happens if the above scenarios involved a French couple Nathan and Emma Martin, for example? Is he simply “Chevalier Nathan Martin” or do the French have an altogether different naming convention? Is she “Chevalier Emma Martin” in her own right or is there a feminine version of the title? Do the French allow honorifics to be derived from a spouse’s precedence? Is this the same today as it was in pre-Republic, Monarchial or Imperial France?
Thanks! |
I asked this question on rec.heraldry a few years ago:
| Quote: | | Is it normal French usage that recipients of French knighthoods (i.e., of French orders in the degree of chevalier or above) are entitled to use the word "Chevalier" before their names, or is chevalier used only as a descriptor after the name? In other words, are such people referred to as "Chevalier Jean Deaux," or as "Jean Deaux, chevalier de la Légion d'honneur"? Are they addressed directly as "M. le Chevalier," "Chevalier," or "M. Deaux"? Or what? |
Francois Velde answered:
| Quote: | | The latter; one would never call a member of the Legion of Honor (or Order of Merit, Order of Arts and Letters, Agricultural Merit, etc) "chevalier Jean Dupont". |
He later added, at greater length:
| Quote: | Anyone of noble descent in pre-1789 France was a "chevalier" (an "ecuyer", or esquire, was someone of recent nobility). That was used as a post-nominal in very formal documents (marriage contracts, tombstones, etc): as in "Jean Dupont, chevalier" but never as "chevalier <Jean> Dupont".
The "chevalier de Lorraine" or "chevalier d'Harcourt" was typically a junior member of those families who had been admitted as minority knight of Malta, and whether or not he actually went through with his vows might continue to be so called socially for whatever reason of convenience.
None of this has any practical relevance after 1789. Anyone calling a member of the French legion of Honor "the chevalier," "chevalier John Smith," or asking "Chevalier John, would you be kind enough to pass the salt?" would instantly be assumed to be mocking the said member.
A style such as "His Right Reverend Excellency Captain The Chevalier John Smith, A.L.P., H.A.B., E.T.S., O.U.P." is a pasticcio of British usage whose author couldn't quite bring himself to usurp the British "Sir" and found the French "chevalier" pompous enough for his purposes. |
Guy Stair Sainty agreed:
| Quote: | | No it is not customary for them to be addressed as chevalier, commandeur or grand croix. Always Monsieur or Madame, and not even a post-nominal. |
Derek Howard said:
| Quote: | In Belgium the style chevalier + first and family names is used in
formal documents |
but later clarified that this applied only to the title of chevalier granted by the king as a title of hereditary nobility, not to members of the various orders in the degree of chevalier.
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Steven Harris
IAAH Assoc. Fellow
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Massachusetts, United States
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Joseph. Very helpfull.
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SAHarris
harrissab@gmail.com |
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